20111116

最後的自由

很多人都渴望永生,我卻不。我不怕死,不怕魂飛魄散人死如燈滅,從此消失,只怕死後還來個沒完沒了,是上天堂也好,是落地獄也好,總之就是被強迫繼續存在。

假如人死後以另一種形式生存(例如沒有肉體,不在時空),我希望自己有最後的自由 --- 有自由選擇是否繼續存在。就算我是上天堂,就算天堂是極樂完美之境,就算我滿心歡喜十分享受天堂的生活,我仍然希望有那最後的自由,假如活到某一點真的是活得不耐煩了,可以選擇「唔玩啦」,在天堂自殺,真的死去,徹底消滅,不再存在。

不論是哪個宗教的神,假如祂是真神,掌管一切,給我自由意志,甚至向我顯示祂的存在,也讓我自由選擇是否信奉祂,卻不給我最後的自由,硬是要我永永遠遠生存下去,那麼我便始終不是個自主的個體。

根據某些基督教宗派,我不信神就要落地獄,神要我永遠存在是因為祂要懲罰我永遠受苦,以彰顯祂的公義。這種教義的問題便在於那公義的標準,而不只是神不給我最後的自由,不視我為自主的個體。

38 則留言:

  1. Like what I said in a comment I left before: One life is enough. Don't be greedy.

    //我仍然希望有那最後的自由,假如活到某一點真的是活得不耐煩了,可以選擇「唔玩啦」,在天堂自殺,真的死去,徹底消滅,不再存在。//
    It's somewhat like a Buddha getting into nirvana forever and won't come back to this world/ universe. To me, it is like 徹底消滅,不再存在. I know many may not agree. But I am not going to defend it. However one thinks it is, it is indefensible. Imaginary!
    Very wild guess (again!): The historical Buddha didn't really buy cyclic existence (reincarnation etc,) but he couldn't say that he thought it wasn't there and went against what everybody in India believed in then. (犯世間相違過) He couldn't preach his stuffs if he did that. He only left a hint. I am not going to defend this either.
    --zpdrmn

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  2. Since there are discussions about politics in another blog entry and there is another entry about 艾未未, I quote this:
    法新社北京16日電:
    艾未未也告訴法新社,他最近沒什麼時間進行平常的藝術創作。不過他認為,這次與政府的奮戰也是藝術品的一種。
    他說:「我認為這是我的作品。我的藝術作品是關於溝通與表達我對社會的關切。」
    Even if all the 奮戰 are futile, we can see them as 藝術作品. Hope 文少 would enjoy. --zpdrmn

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  3. 人總是渴望自由,但一些統治人的人卻想盡辦法去減少(或剝奪)被統治的人的自由,還有一些則是屬於「幫兇」的人,他們自己不是統治者,但卻去以舊的社會制度為榜樣去「恐嚇」人們要服從統治者。
    人類經過抗爭,社會已由奴隸制度到皇帝制度又到今天西方民主國家的自由民主制度,人所得到的自由比起舊的制度是多了很多。
    一些宗教在西方民主國家也隨著社會的民主自由制度而給予教徒有更多的自由,相比起那些社會制度還比較落後的國家以及在那些國家裡的宗教是要好得多了,只是「最後的自由」還未能實現。

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  4. Arthur C Clarke 曾寫過一部科幻小說 The City and the Stars, 說未來世界, 科技可令人永生, 不過所謂永生, 是每活一千年之後, 就要「死」一次, 然後再由電腦在隨機的時間讓你「復生」。而在每一段時間中, 只有全體人口的少部份「生存」。

    如此這般, 你每「輪迴」一次, 都會活在由不同人物構成的社會中。又可以選舉不同的興趣(在故事中, 未來的科技太先進, 無人須工作謀生)。例如你上一世是科學家, 今世可改做詩人之類。

    不知王老師又會否喜歡這種「自由」呢?

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  5. 如果死後讓我到天堂、得永生,永-永-遠-遠-都-在-生,就大鑊咯!就算幾好幾美滿都好,每天每日,不見底的,甚至沒有了時間這慨念,很
    恐怖。救命呀!

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  6. 乜嘢最後的自由啫,你而家的腦電波咪自由到無倫囉,神講咗咁耐,你無聽,又懷疑佢,佢都無你符,仲想點?

    我覺得另一種形式,沒有肉體,不在形式,唔掂,至少你想表達意見時,如何表達?出聲定寫文?定微波傳送?

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  7. 既然沒有在肉體世界永存的自由, 我想也不會有在精神世界(姑且當是)不永存的自由.
    (今次只是一句, 夠精警lol)�

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  8. zpdrmn,

    //他說:「我認為這是我的作品。我的藝術作品是關於溝通與表達我對社會的關切。」 //

    - I liked this. Thanks.

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  9. 楚門,

    //Arthur C Clarke 曾寫過一部科幻小說 The City and the Stars, 說未來世界, 科技可令人永生, 不過所謂永生, 是每活一千年之後, 就要「死」一次, 然後再由電腦在隨機的時間讓你「復生」。而在每一段時間中, 只有全體人口的少部份「生存」。
    如此這般, 你每「輪迴」一次, 都會活在由不同人物構成的社會中。又可以選舉不同的興趣(在故事中, 未來的科技太先進, 無人須工作謀生)。例如你上一世是科學家, 今世可改做詩人之類。
    不知王老師又會否喜歡這種「自由」呢?//

    - 你敘述的故事還未涉及自由,因為你沒有說那種「輪迴」是否由人選擇。如果可以選擇,我會試試,但仍希望有自殺的自由。

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  10. shiren,

    //如果死後讓我到天堂、得永生,永-永-遠-遠-都-在-生,就大鑊咯!就算幾好幾美滿都好,每天每日,不見底的,甚至沒有了時間這慨念,很恐怖。救命呀!//

    - 深有同感。

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  11. karol,

    //乜嘢最後的自由啫,你而家的腦電波咪自由到無倫囉,神講咗咁耐,你無聽,又懷疑佢,佢都無你符,仲想點?//

    - 如果神存在,佢唔係無我符,而係玩緊我!

    //我覺得另一種形式,沒有肉體,不在形式,唔掂,至少你想表達意見時,如何表達?出聲定寫文?定微波傳送?//

    - 這是奧秘,非我輩凡人所能明白。

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  12. 蝮,

    //(今次只是一句, 夠精警lol)�//

    - 那就是警句了。

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  13. //活得不耐煩了,可以選擇「唔玩啦」,在天堂自殺,真的死去,徹底消滅,不再存在。//

    如果活得太久會不耐煩,那麼活得最不耐煩、最想自殺的,應該是上帝吧。

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  14. Meshi,

    //如果活得太久會不耐煩,那麼活得最不耐煩、最想自殺的,應該是上帝吧。//

    - 不可妄測上帝你主的心意。

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  15. Meshi,

    補充一句:我的意思不是活得太久會不耐煩,我不知道在天堂會不會如此;我的意思只是萬一在天堂也會活得不耐煩,我希望有「自我了斷」的自由。

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  16. zpdrmn﹕
    //Even if all the 奮戰 are futile, we can see them as 藝術作品. Hope 文少 would enjoy.//
    many ppl criticize my cynical viewpoints, however, I am skeptic and I believed in pragmatism.
    Frankly speaking,as a businessman, I enjoy their so-call "struggles" if I treat them as clowns. however, if their shows would disturb the status quo of our society, I will criticise them.

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  17. //It's somewhat like a Buddha getting into nirvana forever and won't come back to this world/ universe. To me, it is like 徹底消滅,不再存在.//
    your thought is similar with ancient Buddhist concept, Mahayana(大乘) Buddhism believes that people will go to Sukhavati(極樂世界) after nirvana.
    After reading this article, I more believed that W.Wong's cosmology is quite similar with Buddhism, esp. ancient Buddhism.

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  18. W.Wong:
    正如我上面講﹐你那套人死如燈滅的想法﹐又是很有佛學的意味﹐不過﹐放心我不會再講佛偈了(笑)

    至於所謂最後的自由﹐我倒希望沒生死問題﹐即是說﹐想幾時生就生﹐想幾時死就死﹐死完想生返又得﹐咁就最盞鬼了。

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  19. 文少,

    哦,原來你識寫英文嘅!

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  20. 文少,

    //想幾時死就死﹐死完想生返又得﹐咁就最盞鬼了。//

    - 如果你指的「死」是不再以任何形式存在,那又如何能夠「想生返」呢?誰在想啊?

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  21. //哦,原來你識寫英文嘅!//
    寫到一pat屎都叫識﹖
    //如果你指的「死」是不再以任何形式存在,那又如何能夠「想生返」呢?誰在想啊?//
    以前談過了﹐我的生死觀接近道教和佛教﹐死是指肉身之死﹐靈魂不滅。是故﹐我談的復生不是輪迴﹐而是還陽。

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  22. The way I see it, the common Christian interpretation of heaven can be interpreted as a Twilight Zone type of plot:

    Some intelligent alien who had figured out how to live forever. S/he got bored and needed to keep some pets for companionship. So s/he abducted some of us earthlings to his/her planet and gave us eternal life as well. However, to keep us "happy," we the abducted earthlings were given Zoloft or some other kind of super anti-depressant. Because we the abductees are "happy" under the influence of drugs, we willingly sing praises of our abductor. We are thankful for the abduction because we are given an eternal life filled only with happiness. Because we are made happy, the idea of ending our eternal life won't even come up in our mind.

    But of course, at the conclusion of the episode, Rod Serling would probably ask the viewers if the earthlings are truly enjoying eternal happiness.

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  23. Lin,

    I think the new series of The Outer Limits has an episode with a similar plot.

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  24. 事實上是:人不是上帝造的,反而上帝是人造的。
    是人的思維創造出了一個虛擬的精神世界,裡面有佛祖,有上帝....等等各種不同的宗教和精神信仰,以便人可以把自己的精神寄託在那個世界裡。
    問題是,既然精神世界是人造的,為什麼人不去造一個「完美的」精神世界而要造一個「不完美的」或「不公義」精神世界呢?

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  25. 如果有上帝,上帝有杝不為人知悉的完全自由。
    人若有自由,想是個人追求的「終極自由」,但有可能嗎?
    同意王Sir,[自由萬歳].
    jl

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  26. 文少,
    // if their shows would disturb the status quo of our society, I will criticise them.//
    Disturbing or even changing the status quo may not be bad. It depends on what the status quo is. I am in debt to many people in the past who changed the status quo then.

    //人死如燈滅的想法﹐又是很有佛學的意味//
    I don't see it. Buddhism (may be except the zen sect) talks about cyclic existence, not 人死如燈滅. Only Buddhas can choose to get out of cyclic existence and into nirvana and do not come back ever again. (To me, they don't even choose to stay in some 極樂世界. I don't care about what the scriptures say about it.) So, to me it is Buddhas 死如燈滅, not 人死如燈滅.
    To me, the existence of cyclic existence can only be in one's one and only one life--I take it as an analogy (to living through certain, different psychological states) instead of physical transmigration or reincarnation.
    I don't buy 還陽 either.
    --zpdrmn

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  27. Wong,
    Imagine that you and your wife live forever after your deaths and that both of you stay together and love each other forever. Throw in as many people as you like, your son, other beloved ones, friends... Even dragons. Your choices. You can do whatever you did before your deaths and a lot more. Never runs out of entertainment. You can also (again your choice) make it like this, every morning you forget everything (or most of what) happened before but still remember the people you know and have certain knowledge. You don't know you have lived forever and won't get bored or tired (of being alive). If that happens, you can go to sleep. The next morning will be like a new life.
    Do you want that kind of 永生? --zpdrmn

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  28. 神洲,

    //問題是,既然精神世界是人造的,為什麼人不去造一個「完美的」精神世界而要造一個「不完美的」或「不公義」精神世界呢?//

    - 信徒們是不會讚成你說的「不完美的」和「不公義」的。

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  29. jl,

    //同意王Sir,[自由萬歳].//

    - 萬歲真的「夠皮」了!

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  30. zpdrmn,

    //Do you want that kind of 永生?//

    - Definitely not!

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  31. //Disturbing or even changing the status quo may not be bad. It depends on what the status quo is. I am in debt to many people in the past who changed the status quo then.//
    most of businessmen would prefer political stability which can maintain a stable investment environment,except the speculator...and I don't believe in democratic prophecy.

    //I don't see it. Buddhism (may be except the zen sect) talks about cyclic existence, not 人死如燈滅. Only Buddhas can choose to get out of cyclic existence and into nirvana and do not come back ever again. (To me, they don't even choose to stay in some 極樂世界. I don't care about what the scriptures say about it.) So, to me it is Buddhas 死如燈滅, not 人死如燈滅.
    To me, the existence of cyclic existence can only be in one's one and only one life--I take it as an analogy (to living through certain, different psychological states) instead of physical transmigration or reincarnation.//
    you're right, I forget the concept of reincarnation. 人死如燈滅 is Atheism XDDD

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  32. // Imagine that you and your wife live forever after your deaths and that both of you stay together and love each other forever. Throw in as many people as you like, your son, other beloved ones, friends... Even dragons. Your choices. You can do whatever you did before your deaths and a lot more. Never runs out of entertainment. You can also (again your choice) make it like this, every morning you forget everything (or most of what) happened before but still remember the people you know and have certain knowledge. You don't know you have lived forever and won't get bored or tired (of being alive). If that happens, you can go to sleep. The next morning will be like a new life.
    Do you want that kind of 永生? --zpdrmn

    This feels like the Matrix - Do you want to take the *Truth* pill? Or do you want to forever lie to yourself?

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  33. 文少,
    // most of businessmen would prefer political stability which can maintain a stable investment environment,except the speculator...and I don't believe in democratic prophecy.//
    I understand the preference for political stability by businessmen and many others (not only businessmen want that). But if you are equating changing status quo to destabilizing the political system in a destructive way (necessarily), I am not convinced.
    I am not talking about democratic prophecy. Forget about democracy. You try to tell the black folks in America that their brothers and sisters who were treated like dirt by white people and fought for civil rights in the past (thus changed the status quo then) disturbed businesses (white people's) and was destructive to the political system, you will have a hard time in convincing them that the fight wasn't justified even if you could (unlikely) convince them that it was destructive.
    You may say civil rights is about democracy. Well, just imagine that they didn't know anything about democracy and they just fought for being treated better. --zpdrmn

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  34. Sirius ,
    //Or do you want to forever lie to yourself? //
    Well, believing in or wanting any form of 永生 is lying to oneself. The one I suggested is not different. --zpdrmn

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  35. 幸福的事情,就算發生無限次,都一樣會感到幸福。
     
    尼采甚至會話(大意如此),要如此行動,就算同一事件永恆回歸,也不後悔。

    若真的有天堂,而天堂是一個幸福快樂的理想地方,這種幸福應該就算不斷重複也不會令人感到厭倦的。

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  36. 克萊門特,

    //若真的有天堂,而天堂是一個幸福快樂的理想地方,這種幸福應該就算不斷重複也不會令人感到厭倦的。//

    - 即使如此,我也想有自殺的自由(雖然未必會運用這自由)。

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  37. 雖然我是基督徒(自稱), 但老實說不太想要甚麼永生
    人生活到80都夠長啦, 咁長命把鬼咩

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  38. 如果永生係一種痛苦,那麼,
    呢種痛苦就係叫我地去面對學術。
    用無涯追求無涯
    同古今學者討論
    笑談人生百態 社會政治 文史哲藝
    上至天文地理 風雅頌賦比興
    下至怪力亂神 屎尿屁嫖賭淫
    話唔定 眾多哲學家已經起天上
    創立唔少新既哲學理論啦~~
    悶左 就玩玩遊戲
    什至睇下未來人有咩新玩意啦XD

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