20120326

同性戀的戀

在網上看到 Christopher Hitchens 談論同性戀的一句話,不是甚麼驚人之語,而是平實真切、深刻有理,道出了很多人看同性戀時的偏差: “Homosexuality is not just a form of sex, it’s a form of love, and it deserves our respect for that reason.” (「同性戀不只是一種性事,還是一種愛,因此值得我們尊重。」)對,同性戀不只是性,還有戀,戀愛的戀。

這句話是 Hitchens 一場辯論中說的,說話中提到同場的另一講者 Stephen FryFry 是個同性戀者,Hitchens 義正詞嚴以 Fry 為例維護同性戀,講到激動處還拍了拍 Fry 的肩膀。看片: 

45 則留言:

  1. 很多人看同性戀時的偏差 is that not only they don't see there is love, but they also don't see this: Even if there's only sex, it still deserves respect. --zpdrmn

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    1. If all there is to homosexuality is sex, it may not deserve more respect than zoosexuality.

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    2. If the parties involved in homosexual acts/sex are consenting, I would say they deserve a bit more respect than the (non-innocent or dominant) parties in most zoosexual acts/sex. --zpdrmn

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  2. 常常有人說愛情是精神不是肉體,同性戀就是最好的證明。強行只准許異性戀,變相是認同愛情是肉體高於精神

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    1. 愛情可以有愛有性或有愛無性,但只有性的就不是愛情。

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  3. 盲光社插嘴:

    孌童癖(pedophilia)不只是一種性事,還是一種愛,因此,它值得我們尊重。

    人獸交(zoosexuality)不只是一種性事,還是一種愛,因此,它值得我們尊重。

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    1. 假如孌童癖和人獸交不只是性,而且是愛,便值得尊重。

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    2. 事實上問題可能不是那麼簡單?如何判斷「孌童癖和人獸交」有否包含愛呢?如果孌童癖的人說他/她是愛那個兒童,並且那個兒童也說他/她也愛那個戀童癖的人,以及,如果人獸交的人說他/她是愛那只動物並且那只動物也表現得像狗那樣愛其主人,那是否便可以被認為有愛的成份而值得尊重?

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    3. 兒童無能力去愛及被愛?喔,你歧視兒童,你成人主義(adultism)!
      動物無能力去愛及被愛?喔,你歧視動物,你物種主義(speciesism)!

      今時今日,無論真理性定扮理性,都要答:只要是愛,便值得尊重。
      自己唔去搞孌童癖人獸交係一件事,但我地絕對無符合理性的理由去阻止。

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    4. 如果,只要是愛,便值得尊重,
      咁一個好保守的教徒熱心愛他的上帝,又唔見得會得到尊重?
      Religiosity is a form of love.
      啟蒙理性霸權呀!

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    5. 但是上帝跟兒童和動物不一樣吧?我想不能用同一方式解讀.否則這樣你把上帝改成魔鬼,按你的推論也應該尊重才對.

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    6. 神洲,

      //事實上問題可能不是那麼簡單?//

      - 你說得對,而我說的只是「假如」,至於如何判斷,則非三言兩語能講清楚。

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    7. //自己唔去搞孌童癖人獸交係一件事,但我地絕對無符合理性的理由去阻止。//

      - 如果是強迫或誘騙的,則有理由阻止。

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    8. //如果,只要是愛,便值得尊重,
      咁一個好保守的教徒熱心愛他的上帝,又唔見得會得到尊重?//

      - 如果我相信上帝是真的,便會尊重這種愛,但我不相信啊!Cf. 假如某人熱心「愛」齊天大聖,我是不會尊重這種「愛」的。

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    9. 王Sir,

      //- 你說得對,而我說的只是「假如」,至於如何判斷,則非三言兩語能講清楚。//

      問題似乎是事實上即使找到判斷愛的方法並且證明在某種case時戀童癖的人與兒童是有愛的存在,但這在大多數國家包括本港和美國也是屬於犯法行為,那就很難理解犯法行為為何也值得尊重?
      例如,新聞好像有報導過美國曾經有位女教師戀上未成年的男學生並且女教師因此誕下愛情的結晶--嬰孩,該男孩也說他是愛那位女教師,可以肯定他/她們之間有存在愛情,但那位女教師卻觸犯了美國禁止與未成年兒童性交的法律,她不但失去了工作,而且還被判處刑罰,這樣的戀童是否也值得尊重?

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    10. //很難理解犯法行為為何也值得尊重?//

      - 中國大陸政治犯的犯法行為你不是也尊重嗎?

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    11. 政治犯與刑事犯似乎有很大分別,美國或中國可以互相接納對方政治犯的庇護,雙方可以互相尊重彼此的政治犯,但雙方的刑事犯卻不獲對方接納也不獲雙方尊重,而戀童不論有無愛,中美雙方都視其為刑事犯罪,這就較難理解怎樣尊重雙方都認為是犯罪的問題?

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    12. 我只是想指出,這世上有惡法這回事。

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    13. 我可以尊重他們的愛,但不同意其方式呀

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    14. //- 如果我相信上帝是真的,便會尊重這種愛,但我不相信啊!Cf. 假如某人熱心「愛」齊天大聖,我是不會尊重這種「愛」的。//

      有些人相信每個人都有一個上天注定的soul mate,並會窮一生精力去尋找這個人去愛。但實際上這個注定的另一半可能根本不存在啊,那麼你覺得這種愛值得尊重嗎?

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    15. 神洲,
      //美國曾經有位女教師戀上未成年的男學...//
      I believe in many, if not most, states in the US the age of consent is 16 (same in HK.) But in some countries, it is lower, like 14, 13, and even 12. If the case you mentioned happened in one of those countries, it would probably not go to the court. --zpdrmn

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    16. I forgot an assumption. It should be: If the case you mentioned happened in one of those countries and the woman wasn't a teacher... --zpdrmn

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    17. Heiman,

      //我可以尊重他們的愛,但不同意其方式呀//

      這確是一個很好的辯護理由,戀童者把動機與行為分開,變為有「好心辦壞事」之意,不知可否得到法官輕判(真)?

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    18. zpdrmn,

      //If the case you mentioned happened in one of those countries and the woman wasn't a teacher, it would probably not go to the court.//

      I am not quite sure about that because the law would apply on man & woman equally.

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    19. Meshi,

      //有些人相信每個人都有一個上天注定的soul mate,並會窮一生精力去尋找這個人去愛。但實際上這個注定的另一半可能根本不存在啊,那麼你覺得這種愛值得尊重嗎?//

      - 尋找愛和愛是兩回事呀!

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    20. Wong,

      那麼如果那人說他愛那個另一半,雖然不知道他的另一半在地球上哪一角落、長相如何、性格怎樣,總之他就是深愛那命中注定的另一半呢?你會不會尊重這種愛?

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    21. 我不明白為何這算是愛。

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    22. 神洲,
      my point isn't about whether the adult is a man or a woman. I am saying in some other countries the age of consent is lower (as low as 12) than that in the US, so the case if happened in those countries it would probably not go to the court under some conditions, for examples, both parties are consenting, the adult (man or woman) isn't the teacher, psychologist, pastor, etc, of the minor (boy or girl,) depending on the laws of the countries. I believe in the case you mentioned the boy was older than 12. Hope it is clear enough. --zpdrmn

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    23. I would say as long as the case involved adult (regardless of his/her position) with sexual relationship with underage minor (regardless whether love would be involved), such case before the court would be likely inevitable in most countries.

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    24. 我唔明果段關係係唔係moral-accepted同佢地扑野合唔合法有咩關係?
      如果師生戀 個老既等到個細既16yo先扑, 咁係唔係會由unaccepted變accepted?
      又如果有個宗教國家法律定明唔準係齋月扑野,咁一對couple(adult m+f)係齋月扑野, 佢地段關係係唔係moral-unacceptable?
      hitchens段野我估(得果50sec,唔知前文)係fight for同性婚姻合法化?而唔係同性肛交合法化, 況且而家>21yo就可係合法地幹(hk)

      f

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    25. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHMvnZQe82Y&feature=related

      It seems a serious sentence and of course, if the age of the student is above the consenting age (such as college or university student) then it would be no problem at all.

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    26. p.s. and the woman isn't a teacher

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    27. 神洲,
      //sexual relationship with underage minor//
      but what is underage? Should it be the age of consent?
      The problem here is with a minor whose age is above the age of consent. For example, in HK a 17 year old is a minor but 17 is above 16, the age of consent. Now an adult has sex with a consenting 17 year old minor/child. Should we try the adult in court? --zpdrmn

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    28. -zpdrmn,

      “Underage” I wrote is just the shortened form of “under the consenting age”, if the consenting age in one country is 16 and an adult has sex with a 17 (both are the citizens of the SAME country) I don’t think it would violate the law of consenting age of that country however, since different countries have different consenting ages, it’s not only you cannot quote the lower consenting age of one country as an excuse for you to have sex with underage minor in another country that with higher consenting age and, more importantly, if you are a citizen of a country that with higher consenting age, say if you are a U.S. citizen, the consenting age of U.S. is 16, and you goto a country that has a lower consenting age say 14 and you have sex with a 14 years old there, then when you come back to U.S. you would be highly likely prosecuted by the U.S. law and you cannot defend yourself by the foreign law in U.S. (and that’s why I couldn't understand that why you could quote the lower consenting age(s) from other country(s) for trying as an excuse or as a defending.)

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  4. 唔得,我接受唔到孌童癖和人獸交,呢個係道德問題,無可能咁都話係愛! 係變態囉! 我地做人總唔能夠無道德,乜都話尊重尊重,咁同我去打劫為兩餐有乜分別?!人天生就有道德枷鎖,有可為有不可為...

    mimi

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    1. 打刧傷人財產,孌童癖和人獸交傷你何如? 如果我尊重你不接受孌童癖和人獸交, 那你可否尊重我接受孌童癖和人獸交呢? 咁我覺得人係冇"天生的道德枷鎖"gei, 不過要是有的話,那就是儒家說的"人禽之別", 值得尊重. no offense.

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    2. mimi,

      //唔得,我接受唔到孌童癖和人獸交,呢個係道德問題,無可能咁都話係愛! 係變態囉! //

      - 係個乜嘢道德問題,可否說明?變態就不道德?

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    3. 在我黎講,無論如何做人都要有道德觀念,即係做人方式既準則,只要我地是擁有人類既特徵,就要堅守道德,否則呢個世界越來越多人,就只會更加亂,當然隨住時代既變遷,道德會有所調整,但係人與獸始終唔同品種,夾硬要一齊黎,我心理上始終接受唔到。至於孌童廦,基於道德,我覺得作為成年人應該教授他一套基本正確思維,他的人生道路仍然漫長,如果我地只係基於一時既開心而念到小朋友思想走歪了,對往後既人生也不好走...以上純為小妹愚見!

      mimi

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    4. 我不是反道德,也不是說孌童癖和人獸交沒有問題,只是提出一些可能的看法。

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    5. 甚應是基本正確思維?
      家長說了算?學校說了算?宗教說了算?社會大眾說了算?

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    6. mimi,
      In the reply to 神洲 I wrote (see above) I talked about age of consent. It's legal stuff. But it is related to ethics. What do you make of it? --zpdrmn

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  5. //我不是反道德,也不是說孌童癖和人獸交沒有問題,

    除了主流思維認為不道德之外,還有什麼理性上的理由,可以支持孌童癖和人獸交有問題呢?恐怕沒有吧。"理性上的理由"本身已經排拒了社會文化層面上的一切理由。

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    1. 其行動所帶來的傷害

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  6. 「一種性事」很怪,不若「一種性行為的形式」,另,「它」字可有可無,我偏向不寫,哈。

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    1. 「它」字的確可刪,不必譯得那麼硬,但「性事」一詞我不覺得怪。

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