tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post4325326324573828491..comments2024-03-22T08:04:05.869-07:00Comments on 魚之樂: 食肉者的難題Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-61522710953937784572012-11-13T06:50:30.676-08:002012-11-13T06:50:30.676-08:00 我可以反問外星人:如果有比你智力高更多的外星人,你會願意被他吃嗎?然後說服由於會做道德推論的... 我可以反問外星人:如果有比你智力高更多的外星人,你會願意被他吃嗎?然後說服由於會做道德推論的生物(即人類)存在,所以願意在別的更高智慧的外星人想吃你們時幫助你們,所以消滅掉會做道德推論的生物(即人類)對你們也沒好處,換言之,在此,人類可以與這群外星人訂下互助以及不傷害我們人類的契約。然後本人認為,這不意謂地球人便不可以吃一般動物,為何?因為他們並非在智力上足以做道德推論且訂出契約的生靈,所以,人類沒有理由不吃動物(因為吃動物沒違背任何契約)。WilliamSUnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-44298627945052650352010-06-03T05:56:10.429-07:002010-06-03T05:56:10.429-07:00Just came to this great blog!
What an interesting ...Just came to this great blog!<br />What an interesting question!<br />though I dun know how to answer in a philo way, how about this?<br />As aliens keep livestock which taste v. similar to human beings. Can we be their farm to keep the livestock? so they can get food for free, even dun need to hunt or feed.on9jokerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06750149772857255680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-31134275827308447722010-05-24T09:08:28.929-07:002010-05-24T09:08:28.929-07:00兩位匿名讀者的留言,我就一起答吧。
有很多人根本不認為我們須要找理由去justify吃蔬菜,正如他...兩位匿名讀者的留言,我就一起答吧。<br /><br />有很多人根本不認為我們須要找理由去justify吃蔬菜,正如他們不認為我們須要找理由去justify聽音樂一樣。這個justification的問題,是先有人提出了,如果大家認為有需要回應,才會嘗試提出能夠 justify自己行為的理由,至於那理由是否充分,便要詳細探討才能定奪。<br /><br />一個不認為須要有理由去justify吃蔬菜的人可能會問兩位,吃蔬菜有甚麼不妥,需要justification?W. Wonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161244576570372004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-10711586048864243592010-05-24T02:55:12.481-07:002010-05-24T02:55:12.481-07:00Thanks that is also my point. People eat vegetable...Thanks that is also my point. People eat vegetables or meat just because they want. They are looking for logical reasons to show that they are doing the right thing and then they feel more comfortable about what they are doing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-16540426459893196282010-05-23T23:19:04.483-07:002010-05-23T23:19:04.483-07:00哈哈哈, 我也會不對胃口。 我覺得吃蔬菜、吃肉還是吃人的問題主要都是來自「對不對胃口」, 我記得世上...哈哈哈, 我也會不對胃口。 我覺得吃蔬菜、吃肉還是吃人的問題主要都是來自「對不對胃口」, 我記得世上也有食人族, 我想, 他們吃人也只是對胃口而已, 而那些素食主義者只是覺得肉類不對胃口而已。<br /><br />無論是吃肉還是不吃肉, 人總能找到似是疑非理由去支持他們的行為: 吃肉的會說動物和人的思考能力不是同一檔次, 所以可吃; 吃素的說動物和人同樣有痛覺, 不能吃, 但蔬菜沒有痛覺, 所以可吃; 更甚者會說蔬菜也有生命, 所以不能吃, 果實沒有生命, 所以能吃。<br /><br />以上言論背後的理念是, 「和人類相似就不能吃, 和人類完全不同就可吃」, 問題是在每種食物上總能找到些和人相似的地方及不同的地方, 隨便抓著食物的某特性就說它能吃或不能吃難道不是太自以為是了嗎? 吃還是不吃, 似乎不是一個可以以邏輯解決的問題, 更大程度是一個道德問題, 大家都是以「這食物對不對自己胃口」作為考慮, 潛意識決定了吃還是不吃才開始找理由。Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-12497013659736866222010-05-23T21:57:32.857-07:002010-05-23T21:57:32.857-07:00如果死者生前同意,死者的家屬也不反對,我想不到吃人屍有甚麼不該。我不會吃人屍,只因為不對胃口。如果死者生前同意,死者的家屬也不反對,我想不到吃人屍有甚麼不該。我不會吃人屍,只因為不對胃口。W. Wonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161244576570372004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-78229652639008465552010-05-23T21:52:27.843-07:002010-05-23T21:52:27.843-07:00我問這個問題的原因是, 王先生說蔬菜沒有感覺(我將之理解成「所以吃蔬菜沒有問題」), 那這理由又能不...我問這個問題的原因是, 王先生說蔬菜沒有感覺(我將之理解成「所以吃蔬菜沒有問題」), 那這理由又能不能套用到吃人屍的問題上呢? 我相信大部份人(包括王先生)不會接受吃人屍, 所以我想知道有沒有其他理由可以支持可以吃蔬菜但不能吃人屍但又不會訴諸情感?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-78211573475936728632010-05-23T21:42:00.761-07:002010-05-23T21:42:00.761-07:00如果問題變成「能否吃人屍」呢?
雖然殺人是不行的,
但人總會死, 所以總會有人屍出現,
為甚麼人不能...如果問題變成「能否吃人屍」呢?<br />雖然殺人是不行的,<br />但人總會死, 所以總會有人屍出現,<br />為甚麼人不能吃人屍?<br />人屍不單沒有感覺,<br />連生命跡象都沒有,<br />可說是比蔬菜更低級了。Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-28461058121336194902010-05-21T08:22:28.573-07:002010-05-21T08:22:28.573-07:00CW,
Good point.CW,<br /><br />Good point.W. Wonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161244576570372004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-39565435575787950702010-05-21T08:21:35.585-07:002010-05-21T08:21:35.585-07:00匿名,
//It is also difficult to use the same reason...匿名,<br /><br />//It is also difficult to use the same reason to argue with aliens if aliens don't have neural system and don't understand what pain is.//<br /><br />That's right. But I have never suggested that the aliens should not eat us simply because we feel pain. All I have pointed out is a relevant difference between vegetables and animals that may (partly) explain why we think eating vegetables is all right.W. Wonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161244576570372004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-30130037599251058342010-05-21T05:28:39.081-07:002010-05-21T05:28:39.081-07:00Wong,
/*
. I think the aliens would see the diffe...Wong,<br /><br />/*<br />. I think the aliens would see the difference between us and them as much bigger than that between ancient Egyptians and us.<br />*/<br /><br />I agree. But it's a 'given' of the question that the aliens allow us to defend ourselves in terms of reasoning or argument. That means at least some dialogue and understanding is possible between the two. This should help narrowing down the difference. We don't attempt to communicate with an ant or a flower, at least not in the commonsense meaning of communication.<br /><br />Yan,<br /><br />It's my fault for not stating my point clear. I see this as something goes beyond a 'grammatical remark on our language'. We're different from animals not just that we speak English or Chinese and they don't. But that the language we use give us the ability to articulate meanings and to make value distinctions and judgments.<br /><br />Here's a reformulation of my argument:<br /><br />(To extraterrestrials:) Please don't eat us, because animals don't think/behave like we do. Although we do not have your knowledge or technology, we are capable to feel and reflect on things as you do. We're one of your kind.CWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-60081277600532172462010-05-21T02:48:23.185-07:002010-05-21T02:48:23.185-07:00I still don't think not feeling pain would jus...I still don't think not feeling pain would justify eating vegetables. Let's not use examples of giving sedatives. There are human beings who suffer from traumatic brain damage and are in what we called 'vegetative state'. They are not able to feel the pain as well... <br /><br />Pain is quite a subjective term. Vegetables may feel sth bad but not able to convey to human being. It is also difficult to use the same reason to argue with aliens if aliens don't have neural system and don't understand what pain is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-30957888431388225962010-05-20T22:23:18.343-07:002010-05-20T22:23:18.343-07:00CW,
/*
Human beings are capable of articulating wi...CW,<br />/*<br />Human beings are capable of articulating with networks of meanings and making qualitative value-based distinctions and it's this ability that differentiates them from other animals and plants.<br />*/<br /><br />I see this as a grammatical remark on our language rather than a fact of difference between men and animals. The remark is: animals simply don't talk like us. <br /><br />May be, extraterrestrials can talk to plants and animals even if we don't know how it would be.<br /><br />Therefore, the grammatical joke can hardly be seen as as a premise for extraterrestrials not eating us. Please take a note of my formulation of your argument:<br /><br />(To extraterrestrials:) Please don't eat us, because animals doesn't talk like how we talk and it is impossible for me to know how they talk.<br /><br />A stronger would be:<br />(To extraterrestrials: Please don't eat us, because we human are limited in number and you cannot eat us forever. And if you want to pasture us, you would use so much effort and not economical to you to explore the universe and maximize your benefits. Why don't you let us to pasture in the proxy of you and provide you the most tasty food on earth. You can enjoy your flight and we supply you food on time. It is only us, human, have such ability on earth to help you.Yanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05543452661425487649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-86019738595217952052010-05-20T21:22:56.694-07:002010-05-20T21:22:56.694-07:00CW,
Thanks for your interesting comments. I think...CW,<br /><br />Thanks for your interesting comments. I think the aliens would see the difference between us and them as much bigger than that between ancient Egyptians and us.W. Wonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161244576570372004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-30535071758219965412010-05-20T17:55:28.110-07:002010-05-20T17:55:28.110-07:00Wong,
How about this approach to the problem:
Th...Wong,<br /><br />How about this approach to the problem:<br /><br />The question only assumes a tremendous gap in IQ/knowledge between the aliens and human beings. It does not imply that the latter are necessarily inferior to the former in terms of logical reasoning and moral sensibility. The very fact that we could reason/argue with the aliens (and both agree to be bound by the force of better argument) indicates that human beings are one of their kinds (even though we're extremely primitive in terms of knowledge or technology). <br /><br />Human beings are capable of articulating with networks of meanings and making qualitative value-based distinctions and it's this ability that differentiates them from other animals and plants. If we travel back to ancient Egypt in a time machine, we won』t have problem recognizing the Egyptians as human beings like us.<br /><br />However, being logical is not incompatible with the practice of cannibalism :-) and we all know that recognizing others as our own kind does not necessarily stop us from doing horrible things to them. I don't think our chance is good in our debate with the aliens. But that's the best argument I can put forward.CWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-86465069068932417312010-05-20T08:22:35.480-07:002010-05-20T08:22:35.480-07:00I don't think we were trying to point out the ...I don't think we were trying to point out the same thing.<br /><br />I did suggest that one of the reasons why it is all right to eat vegetables is that they don't feel pain. Your response was that if that justified eating vegetables, it would also justify eating animals (or even humans) if we made them not feel pain first. Then I pointed out that this way of arguing is problematic because no matter what difference we point to between animals and vegetables that may justify eating vegetables, you could argue the same way.<br /><br />So what you were trying to point out was that the reason I gave does not justify eating vegetables, while what I was trying to point out was that your argument can be generalized and has ridiculous implications.W. Wonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161244576570372004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-66355239509496345012010-05-20T02:22:21.779-07:002010-05-20T02:22:21.779-07:00Actually it is you who answered the question that ...Actually it is you who answered the question that why eating vegetables are not cruel by saying "But vegetables don't have a central nervous system and don't feel pain."<br /><br />So the way you argued, as you pointed out later yourself, is not correct. That is also what I was trying to point out.<br /><br />Again, my point is not we should not eat vegetables, but we could not find logical reasons to treat them differently from animals.<br /><br />Thank you for your reply.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-48655631379901050892010-05-19T07:17:59.259-07:002010-05-19T07:17:59.259-07:00My last paragraph was an attempt to use your argum...My last paragraph was an attempt to use your argument against you: if I asked you why we should not eat vegetables, you might say "Because they are alive" (actually, what else can you say?), and if I argued your way, I could say "What if we make them not alive first?". And this would be a ridiculous argument.W. Wonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161244576570372004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-21837103494594591632010-05-19T01:56:04.575-07:002010-05-19T01:56:04.575-07:00Pain might be one relevant consideration but it do...Pain might be one relevant consideration but it doesn't seem to be the critical consideration. Again, I am not sure incapability of intentional action would justify eating vegetable, or not eating because they don't have an option to resist being eaten. <br /><br />I don't think it is the problem of my argument. It simple because we can not find a good reason treating vegetables differently from humans or other animals so that we can not justify our eating of vegetables but not animals. Then why do you think we can eat vegetable but not animals?<br /><br />For the last paragraph, are you suggesting it is all right to eat human being if we could make them not alive first... So cruel!<br /><br />My point is we cannot find a logical reason to treat vegetables differently. But emotionally yes, because they don't look like they are suffering, at least not in the same way as animals do...they leave our mind in peace when we eat them.<br /><br />I don't think people would go through all the 'considerations' before they can finally make a decision about 'to eat or not to eat'. They do it simply because they want to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-25528256425158316762010-05-18T08:19:46.459-07:002010-05-18T08:19:46.459-07:00It's not that simple. I was merely pointing ou...It's not that simple. I was merely pointing out pain as one relevant consideration; there are certainly other considerations, such as the fact that vegetables are not capable of intentional action. <br /><br />The way you argue is problematic, for you can give the same kind of argument no matter what is being suggested as the relevant consideration for treating vegetables differently from humans or other animals. If, for example, I suggested that it is all right to eat vegetables because they can't think, then you could argue that it implies that it is all right to eat a human provided that we take away his ability to think before we eat him.<br /><br />Indeed, suppose you think that we should not eat vegetables simply because they are alive, I could use your argument and say it is all right to eat them provided that we make them not alive first!W. Wonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161244576570372004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-27307810567106478592010-05-18T02:26:04.164-07:002010-05-18T02:26:04.164-07:00So you don't eat animal because they would fee...So you don't eat animal because they would feel the pain and you eat vegetables because they don't have central nervous system. What if you give some sedatives to animals and they would not feel the pain when you kill them. Would that justify your eating of animals? If yes, would that apply to human being as well?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-12892131574793642852010-05-16T09:10:02.138-07:002010-05-16T09:10:02.138-07:00yan,
It doesn't mean what you think it means....yan,<br /><br />It doesn't mean what you think it means.W. Wonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161244576570372004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-9856887928301467922010-05-16T05:02:19.553-07:002010-05-16T05:02:19.553-07:00Wong,
Whatsoever how this means, you are right ab...Wong,<br /><br />Whatsoever how this means, you are right about this.Yanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05543452661425487649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-72381491433210100502010-05-16T00:46:58.476-07:002010-05-16T00:46:58.476-07:00yan,
Wittgenstein死了這麼久,即使你想吃也不輪到你了。yan,<br /><br />Wittgenstein死了這麼久,即使你想吃也不輪到你了。W. Wonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161244576570372004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4010478591191633760.post-35230462243420265622010-05-15T22:00:48.720-07:002010-05-15T22:00:48.720-07:00Wong,
其實我好專敬Wittgenstein啊,吃了他很可惜。
他的 consistent ...Wong,<br /><br />其實我好專敬Wittgenstein啊,吃了他很可惜。<br /><br />他的 consistent 及 integrity, 令我生在這趨炎附勢世界有點安慰啊。Yanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05543452661425487649noreply@blogger.com